Women Trust More Than Men But Lose Trust Faster with Ashley Reichheld and Amelia Dunlop

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Allison: Welcome back to the Deliberate Leaders podcast. I am your host and Executive Coach Allison Dunn. Today’s topic is women lose trust and more than men, but lose trust faster over time. And our guests are Ashley Reichheld and Amelia Dunlop. Ashley is the principal at Deloitte Digital and works with clients across industries to help them reimagine brands. Amelia Dunlop is the chief experience officer at Deloitte Digital, and a principal at Deloitte that helps organizations solve tough problems using human centered design. They are both the co author of The Four Factors of Trust, which will be out on the shelves in November, Ashley and Amelia, thank you so much for joining us here today.

Ashley/Amelia: Thanks for having us.

Allison: Absolutely. I love to kick these off with a deliberate conversation. And since I have two guests, I’m going to start with Amelia first, if that’s okay, what would be your number one leadership tip for our listeners today?

Amelia: Oh, I love how you, you jump right in. I think for me, it would have to be something around the topic of humanity. As you mentioned, I wrote the book on elevating the human experience, which simply means being intentional about making experiences just a little bit better for people. But I think in the workplace, particularly now, you know, gone are the days where we hide behind the professional kind of veneer. You know, I’m as likely to have, you know, one of my children kind of show up during this podcast is as anybody else. And I think we’re mindful now that showing up with vulnerability is one of those ways that we can actually build trust, both with our team members or colleagues and ultimately, with our customers.

And humanity actually means doing those small moments that really matter. So one of the one of mine, that I often talk about is, I create a template of all the pandemic Alison called Joy day, which is Wednesdays, and just sharing one thing that kind of brings you joy, and loving the loving the your team member kind of do the same. And it just kind of changes the atmosphere just a little bit on what used to be known as hump day. I like to think of it as Joy day. So that just leading with a little bit more humanity is one of the tips I’d share with your listeners.

Allison: I absolutely love that. So how do you tip that in a conversation? What is your joy today? Or today’s Joy date share something like how does that look?

Amelia: Or I would say something like what brings you joy today?

Allison: Love it. Fantastic. Great tip. Thank you, Amelia. Ashley, what is your number one tip for our leader, our listeners.

Ashley: So Amelia and I are actually using two of the four factors, I think in our leadership? Well, let me I guess, using humanity, I’ll share transparency, I think one of the things that a lot of leaders get wrong is the we think we need to keep things from teams kind of sheltered them, or maybe we just don’t have time to bring them up to speed. And what I’ve learned is that being transparent and sharing the kinds of information that you need to be successful, it’s really important.

I lived in Holland for the better part of a decade. And there’s a word that the Dutch have called break behind. That basically means anything that can be talked about should be talked about. I very much take that to heart. So making sure my teams have everything they need to know in order to get things done. And then I’d be careful to call it relevant transparency, there can be a point of too much information. So as a leader, you have to very carefully balance what you are sharing. But largely the more people understand why it is they’re doing what they’re doing, the better they’re going to do.

Allison: Fantastic transparency and humanity. Both fantastic tips. Thank you very much. So the episode topic today is women trust more than men but lose trust faster over time. And one of the things that you’ve talked about is the trust gap. Can you explain what that is or what that means?

Ashley/Amelia: Well, I think I think we have to start by talking about how we think about trust. And the way we think about trust is trust is a massive driver of behavior. And we know that and companies kind of know, hey, we need to build trust with our with our customers and our employees. And I think leaders know that they need to be trusted by their teams in order to get things done yet, it’s not really something we all focus on. It’s something that we kind of take for granted. And the companies that do ask about trust, ask hey, do you trust me? And often that’s not really a great way to gather data. It’s super hard to answer that question. Do you trust me to What did you ask me to show up on time? Do you trust me to put my kids to bed on time? I don’t know what once you trust me know what?

When we started our research, we actually wanted to break down what are the drivers of trust? So instead of asking people do you trust we can ask about do you think a company has humanity? Are they transparent? Are they capable of delivering against their promises, do they do that reliability? Those four factors are the drivers of trust. And that’s how we measure it. So when we talk about the trust gap, what we’re really talking about is, how do different members or how do you employees? How do customers think about the organizations they interact with across those four factors? Amelia, maybe you want to talk a little bit about the pattern we see with men and women?

Ashley/Amelia: Well, absolutely, I mean, the first thing we see is that as leaders, we overestimate how much we’re trusted both by our employees and by our customers by about 40 to 50%, respectively. So that’s the first gap is this this aha, the trust matters to drive behavior, but we’re not as trusted as we think we are. So that’s, that’s one thing that we would share.

But then the other thing that was interesting to us, Allison, is that, we noticed that women start out trusting as much if not more than men and early parts of their career. But that steadily declines by almost 15 points up to and unless they reached the C suite, or the 55, and it’s no longer relevant. So this is one of the things that we thought we would kind of explore a little bit with you is this declining trust that we observe among women?

Allison: What do you think is the cause of the declining trust?

Ashley/Amelia: Well, I would say first and foremost, trust is declining. Overall, institutions like Gallup and pew have been measuring trust for the last 40 years. And it’s really a straight line down. People don’t trust as much in organized religion in government and healthcare. So really, a lack of trust is epidemic in the US. And to some degree globally, what we’re seeing is that this impacts women more than men, and when you kind of take a step back and think about how we’re treating people, it largely makes sense, it’s really hard to trust a system that doesn’t work for you.

And we can talk about all kinds of examples. But if you think about as being a purchaser, trust in automotive for women is really low. But you know, cars are kind of built for men. In fact, the average, the most, most vehicle manufacturers, when they’re testing cars, use an average male, dummy, a five foot 10, test dummy to test whether or not it’s safe, what that really means is that cars aren’t quite as safe for people who aren’t an average five foot 10 male, and actually, the risk of dying as a female driver is quite a bit higher than as a male driver. So if you are a female driver, do you trust as much in that car? It’s kind of hard to suggest that you should?

Allison: Absolutely. And I think it could tie back to an example of where that does get diminished over time.

Ashley/Amelia: When I think the other thing in the workplace, Allison is that we know that women trust less than men, and that gap increases by 500%. When you actually introduce kind of variable base pay and performance based compensation, which that also struck us. And, you know, we hypothesize that that gap is largely kind of tied to the pay gap, right? We know that women are probably on average 83 cents on the dollar to men, but also that that sort of hidden expectation of extra hours extra work, uncompensated labor, and perhaps you know, that time away from the home, where women are less likely to trust them.

Ashley/Amelia: That’s a really good point, Amelia. And another stat to add to that, that’s also super interesting is women also trust about 60% less than men when they don’t have flexible work hours? If you think about it, what they’re really saying is, look, you’re not trusting me to do the work on my time you want me to do it on your time, that doesn’t suggest a high degree of humanity?

Allison: What types of things do we need to do as a society as a humanity to build more trust internally within our teams? What are some of the techniques that you’re suggesting?

Ashley/Amelia: Well, I think we think first and foremost, measure trust. We’re encouraging everybody to take a look at the factors start with that baseline. And these, these four factors really do describe the components of trust, right, trust at its core, is when you make and keep good promises, making good promises. It’s described as humanity and transparency. I mean, making you a promise, it’s relevant and beneficial for you. Am I telling you everything you know, about, you need to know about it? And then can I deliver against that capability and reliability? So start with those and measure and understand where your trust gaps are? And then Amelia, maybe want to talk about how we ideate on that?

Ashley/Amelia: For sure. I mean, I think the other thing that can we created the four factors, Allison, largely because we as leaders wanted something that we could use, right, we could use with our own practices and our own teams and with our own customers. And what’s really, what’s really beautiful about the four factors is they’re as simple, they’re actionable, but what I love most about them is they predict behavior, right?

So as a social scientist, they predict behavior up to 74% of the time. So to your question like, What can we actually do? So yes, start measuring it. But more importantly, start predicting the behaviors that are most likely going to grow trust for your audiences, whether it’s for the women that you’re that you want to focus on, or other demographics in your organization.

Ashley/Amelia: Alia would love to put a finer point on what we mean by dress behavior, is it? Okay, if I do that? Please do? Yes, well, so as an example, if when a company is considered to have a high degree of humanity, customers are 280% more likely to stick with them when they make a mistake. An example that we’re working on right now is an airlines. The summer was a really tough time for airlines, there were a lot of flight delays. For one of our airline clients, we looked at what happened when you had trust or didn’t have trust when people were delayed, when a customer trusted this airline, and they were delayed, and there was a net zero impact to their perception. However, when they didn’t trust the airline to begin with, and then they were delayed, we saw a negative 25% decrease. And you can picture this, right? You’re flying an airline and you’re trust them, you say, You know what delays happen? It just that’s the way it is. There’s weather, there’s all kinds of stuff. But if you don’t trust them, you’re sitting there saying, Hey, did you give my crew to somebody else? Isn’t a mechanical failure? What are you doing that caused this delay. So it does drive resiliency, on the employee side, as an example, back to behaviors. When a an employer is considered to be highly capable, you see a 50% drop in people looking for other jobs. So it really does drive targeted behaviors that companies are trying to try to build.

Allison: Is there some predictive behaviors that we’re talking about that if someone’s listening, right, now, they could go like, Ooh, I’m in trouble. Maybe I don’t have as much of a reflection of humanity that I feel like I’m displaying. So are there some key behaviors that we would see and be able to identify most accurately?

Ashley/Amelia: Well, I would say that one of the things that we’d like about the four factors of trust is you don’t have to wait for somebody else in your organization to go start doing something, maybe yourself to your point, you as a leader, you can kind of start to think through, what am I doing to demonstrate each of these four factors and I think one of the most beautiful ways to think about this as your leadership philosophy, so actually do want to share your leadership philosophy.

Ashley/Amelia: I actually share my leadership, publish it for my team so they can see it. And it’s based on the four factors. I tried to be human. And I learned a lot from Amelia in this, this degree, take the time to get to know people take the time to check in just treat people like you want to be treated and make it about them not about you be transparent. We talked about that a little bit. And of course, you have to show up capably and reliably those are baseline components for anybody, you got to be able to do the things that you’re promising that you can do.

Allison: And that feels very foundational. But I feel like you can point to predictive behaviors based on all of those so good. In, in your leadership tip, you were talking about transparency, I think was in part of the introduction. Can you explain the balance between that and what that what that actually provides being a proactive, transparent leader?

Ashley/Amelia: Amelia, I’m sure you’re going to dig in. So let me talk about from an organizational perspective first, because I know this is really important, both of us. But this is actually one of the things that a lot of organizations get wrong. When we look at trust scores across industries, it’s more likely that you’re low on transparency versus reliability and capability. So it is the secret sauce or element that people are missing. And what we describe it as is kind of the equivalent of vulnerability for companies, you build trust in moments of vulnerability, when I make myself vulnerable to you, I’m trusting you to do right by me, so to speak.

And so transparency is a great way for companies to demonstrate vulnerability. But to your point, there is a very careful balance, you have to hit you can’t spend every time you can’t spend hours and hours and hours telling people everything we’ve all gotten illegally is 500 pages of information when you want to open up a new account, right? There’s, there’s probably not time to read all of those. So we want to we want to help people understand what they need to know, one of the examples we love to use is, let’s say you’re at a farm to table restaurant, it is really cool to know where the food comes from, know about the farmer and his or her family and how the food’s grown. All that’s great, but you probably don’t want to know is the name of the animal you might be eating or how that particular item was processed. There’s a there’s a mouthful you need to know and the amount you don’t need to know.

Allison: That’s a great example.

Ashley/Amelia: Yeah, and I think the thing I would add to that is that we’re that it applies also to the individual leadership perspective. So just the same way from an organization that actually talked about her personal leadership philosophy. Transparency is also very connected to authenticity. And the fact that you know, I often tell this story where I Sharing up to a coffee chat in this in the Zoom we’re all doing with some new employees. And I remember at the end of it, one younger woman said something about like that I showed up as refreshingly authentic. And when I asked her what she meant by that, you know, she said, you know that it was unusual to, to kind of, you know, to feel that someone was being so transparent with them. And when I remember saying to her that it would take me longer to figure out which version of myself the entire team wanted me to be, than to actually just be who I was. So that kind of transparency. You know, we can show up as individual leaders as well as kind of how we show up for our customers and organizations.

Allison: Fantastic, thank you, Amelia. One of the areas that I’m hoping to kind of shed some more light on so we’re talking about, you know, humanity and being humans first. And we’re all humans first. And I think that’s what makes the whole world a beautiful place. Because we’re all unique. How, how can we plan for human error so that making mistakes doesn’t derail the trust? That we’re looking to establish?

Ashley/Amelia: Well, I think what I love about that is it’s acknowledging that to being human does not mean being perfect. Right. And I think we sometimes forget that we sometimes forget that, that embracing our own humanity and others is acknowledging that we’re not going to do everything perfectly. But I think like Ashley shared earlier that one of the things we realize is that if we make a mistake, but we already have high human scores, we’re 280% more likely to stick with that brand after a mistake. So that’s why investing in humanity before you need it makes sense from a brand perspective.

Allison: Good example. Ashley, did you have anything to add to that?

Ashley/Amelia: As perfectly said, Okay, well, I’m just going to shine a little bit of light, I feel like in in the transition, that maybe Airlines is a great example. So I’ve just recently flown, I’ve always been a significant southwest fan, and I’m not calling them out on it. But there was clearly a distrust from one of their agents to all of the flyers, kind of explaining the behavior she was expecting and, you know, must be kind to each other.

And I’m thinking well, that’s, that’s that messaging is okay. But as a person standing in line, I’m like, What is she trying to say? And handled one of the passengers in a way that actually created a bunch of distrust with everyone else behind her. And I just found that very interesting that while she was trying to communicate, maybe a level of behavior distrust by stating it the way that it was stated, created other distress, which was very unfortunate, and shadow the way that I actually look at the brand, unfortunately.

Ashley/Amelia: You know, it’s, it’s not the first time we hear that one of the things that I think people forget is that you have to give trust to get trust, if you start from a position of I don’t trust you that it’s likely the reaction that you’re going to get back, people tend to live up to or down to your expectations. So if you’re setting the expectation low, you’re likely going to be driving people down there. It’s one of the things we talk a lot about with companies. There’s a big debate right now, for example, on workforce productivity, we’re still in a hybrid environment, lots of people working from home, the transition back to the office has been rocky in places. And to manage that a lot of companies want to start tracking things like productivity, how many mouse clicks are people can have, are people actually doing what they say they’re doing.

That’s the last thing we would encourage companies to track. In fact, what we would say is that’s an outcome. And what you really want to drive to measure is the drivers what is driving the behavior that you’re looking at, which is another reason we encourage people to look at trust, for example, when companies when companies are trusted by their workers, those workers are 80% of those workers are motivated to work versus just 30% Who don’t trust those companies. So it makes a really big difference. Okay.

Allison: Thank you for highlighting that one of the statistics I have is why women do women trust brands 12% less than men across industries. What drives that? Is that go back to that, that the cars the vehicles are made with men?

Ashley/Amelia: It’s that and also one of the other things the phenomenon that we hear a lot about, which was the shrink it and pink it right where as women we will be charged as much or more for a product, whether it’s dry cleaning services or shampoo, which is essentially the same product but because it specifically has a pink label on it will be charged more for it.

Allison: I would imagine that actually that factor is probably a little bit higher is the is the 12% based on tons of research or just general? You know, where does that the factor come from, I would imagine it actually would be higher than 12%.

Ashley/Amelia: So it’s interesting because we see trust levels change depending on what else has happened in the environment. When Amelia and I started this research, we’ve actually done several rounds of research with employees. And the first round of research we did was right in the heat of the pandemic, there were a whole lot of, there’s a lot of racial tension, you can kind of picture this everything feeling like a boiling pot. And at that point in time, we saw more significant discrepancies in trust levels by ethnicity by gender, bisexuality, the more other you are, the less you trusted. Now fast forward six months, 12 months down the road, and those trust scores kind of came back up to parody, it was more of a normal environment, there wasn’t as much disenfranchisement.

So trust surfaced again and was level. The reason that’s so interesting is because it means that as leaders, you have to pay attention to what we call trust flags, those things that are simmering right below the surface, and while things might appear to be okay, at the moment, that 12% gap, for example,  has the possibility of breaking wide open, so you have to be measuring for these different things anyway. Okay. Yeah. Thank you, Amelia. One of the things that we’d love to talk about in this particular category, actually, beyond trust flags, is the notion of lived experience versus demographics. Because we were really surprised by that outcome,

Allison: I just want to make sure what you’re saying.

Ashley/Amelia: Yeah, so we had a hypothesis that the demographics right, your race, your sexual orientation, these are the things that would most likely predict your trust behaviors. And it turns out, that just wasn’t the case. But that it was a it was your what we call your lived experience, which is a combination of your agency X and expectation and as the can accumulative different variables that make up your life. And so these are the things that we realized, both in the workplace. So your lived experience is more, the more senior you are, whether or not you’re a parent, that these are the things that made you more likely to trust. And then similarly, your lived experiences, not just your race, over time are more predictive of behavior.

Ashley/Amelia: But there’s an important intersection to touch on here too, which is that they’re not entirely separate, right? Your identity does influence how you’re treated and can shift your lived experience. I’ll give you a personal example from my own life as a as a way to translate that my partner is Dutch. And so for many years, our marriage license wasn’t recognized outside by the country. So we had to live outside.

When we finally came back after DOMA fell down after DOMA fell down, let me say it again. When we finally came back, after the Supreme Court got rid of the defensive Marriage Act, we decided to have kids, we now have twins who are turning five this November, my parents live in Ohio and wanted to go visit them, but my daughter has type one diabetes, so we were aware that it is possible in emergencies, you might end up in the hospital, while both my partner and I are on their birth certificates. Ohio wouldn’t actually consider my partner to be a biological parent. So if for some reason Murphy was in the hospital, she wouldn’t be able to visit her and she didn’t have any visitation rights. So in order to safely visit my parents in Ohio, we had to adopt our own children, which is kind of crazy to think about, right. So that component of my of our lives, the fact that we were married to each other led us to be treated a bit differently. And that has shaped how I think about trips to Ohio, your lived experience and your identity have an intersection.

Allison: That’s a great example. And that is, seems very archaic. I’m not even sure what the right word for it is.

Ashley/Amelia: But I think it’s well said, okay, good.

Allison: Why, why is trust hard to build in? So easy to lose?

Ashley/Amelia: I mean, it’s, there’s so many reasons, right? I think one of the is the fact that you can’t build trust once and for all, right, that it matters in every single moment. Along whether it’s a customer journey or employee journey. So I think that’s one of the reasons that it’s hard. It’s hard because it’s built across every function in your organization, every leader, so it’s not the single remit of a leader, although they each have a role to play. And I think it’s easy to lose, just because we have expectations. And if we’re not able to fulfill those expectations, that I think we end up losing trust. And I think it just goes back to what Ashley said earlier, it’s making a good promise and keeping it and if we’re unable to keep that promise, we’re going to lose trust, that setting expectations is really important.

And a lot of companies don’t necessarily do this really well. When an experience doesn’t live up to your expectations. You will lose trust that is just the way it goes. So companies have to do a good job of setting expectations and also coaching people along the way. Airlines is a really good example for that to imagine it’s the first time you’ve flown. And all of a sudden, you hit this massive turbulence kind of holding on to your seat for dear life, hoping the plane doesn’t go down. Meanwhile, the person next to you is working away on their computer or frequent flyer who does this all the time, and they’re just thinking, look, don’t spill your coffee on me, it’s going to be fine. The expectation that you have set by based on your own experience or set based on what the company does for you, is really important.

Allison: I completely agree. And it is amazing that sometimes we can have even unrealistic expectations that causes loss of trust, and there’s like, no baseline for it, like if you can’t even position for because it’s just unrealistic going in, maybe not the standard, but it can happen.

Ashley/Amelia: Another really interesting dimension that might be worth exploring, there is agency, when we talk about trust, we talk about both agency and expectations. Agency is your ability to control outcomes, right. And so the more agency you have, the more control you have, the more trust you have, ultimately, that the solution is going to work for you. So the other thing that companies or organizations should consider is how much agency they’re getting people.

Are you able to find what you need when you need it? Do you have to ask for help to do that. And if you do, is that help readily available, it also explains a little bit of what you’re seeing between the male and female dimension network, because there’s a direct correlation with how much you trust and how senior you are, when you’re at the highest levels of the firm, you have a lot of control a lot of agency and therefore your trust levels are much higher, because you have a much greater degree to influence outcomes.

Allison: I like the concept of the concept of agency that’s actually super powerful. How do you how do you give people agency? How do you? How can people determine whether how can you encourage less senior folks to have a sense of agency when they do because maybe senior leaders just assume that they do? Because they do? Do you understand? I don’t know. I totally get it.

Ashley/Amelia: Yeah, I’m happy. I’m happy to jump in. This is actually one of the topics astronauts were talking about just this morning. Because as you probably can tell, we are both passionate, not only about the topic of trust, generally, but what this means for women in the workforce. And we were thinking about exactly your question, what can you do to give someone a sense of trust in themselves, who might not already have it or might not feel like that’s reflected in the organization that they’re a part of.

And so we what we were talking about is similarly to the idea of giving trust to get trust, that whatever I’m, you know, around a young, female in our, in our workplace, I always try to remind them what it is that they’re good at. Because we simply just don’t tell people that enough. And I think one of the one of the things that limits our own ability to kind of see ourselves kind of growing and an organization is that kind of kind of mind game that we get into when you don’t see yourself reflected in leadership. And when you don’t see yourself reflected in the organization around you, that you can start to distrust yourself. So one of those simple things is just to kind of flip that, and to remind ourselves that, that we are we are worthy of trust, and that we are worthy of the type of work that we love doing.

Ashley/Amelia: And you see this reinforced in our data too. Just a quick example is companies that have flexible working hours tend to have a higher degree of trust with women, largely because we’re saying you can do the work on your own time we trust that you get it done.

Allison: In the intro, one of I think it was Ashley had developed a platform to measure groundbreaking measurement tool poised to become a gold standard for evaluating organizational performance. What it what is that and how does the organization get tapped into that? I’m just curious.

Ashley/Amelia: it’s a team of folks who helped to create this, what we call it, we call it the HX trust ID and it is based on the four factors that we’ve been talking about humanity, transparency, capability, reliability. And it is designed as a simple measure organizations can use a survey with employees with customers with partners, it’s just four questions, and it can give you a pulse of what’s really happening behind the surface of trust was driving trust or eroding trust for you.

Well, in our book, coming up The Four Factors of Trust, we actually publish the questions that companies can ask, along with all the attributes that sit underneath it that drive each of the factors, and we encourage companies to use it. Amelia will also point out I’m sure that one of one of the things we recommend to companies is beyond just asking, we really try to move people to predicting that too. So we’ve actually created a platform that organizations can use to not just measure trust, but to look forward and predict trust based on behavior. So instead of having to ask people all the time, hey, do you trust me? Do you Trust me, you trust me, you can tell whether or not they trust you and to what degree by looking at their behavior.

Ashley/Amelia: I mean, one of the things I love saying is that when I’m asked Ellison about what can you do to kind of start to build trust, what I like to say is the first thing you can do is start measuring trust, right? And kind of start surveying and using these, these questions. But then the second thing you can do is stop serving, right, because nobody wants to be surveyed as frequently as we currently are. And we know there’s so much bias in the system. So let’s begin by serving to kind of set a baseline but then like, let’s start predicting behavior and stop serving everyone.

Ashley/Amelia: Else. I’m curious, did you get a survey from Southwest on your flight?

Allison: I am not sure. So I flights recently, they did not send me a survey. But the Alaska flight that I flew home on Sunday, I they did ask, Did you fill it in? I did not. Question. It’s just because I wasn’t good. I wouldn’t give in southwest feedback. I went to Alaska because it was perfect.

Ashley/Amelia: The reason I asked you that question is because most people don’t fill out the survey unless they had a problem or unless they had a really great experience. And so you’re not really getting great data as a result of that. And I think the other problem is that most companies don’t do a great job of acting on that feedback. So it even makes the problem worse. You tell them what a terrible experience you had, it goes somewhere into the vacuum of market research at the company and not into customer service, and nobody can help you. And then you just feel worse, because nobody’s bothered to take the time to say, Hey, I’m really sorry, that happened to you. All right.

Allison: Yeah, I’ve got, I probably have an interesting, I have a small team. So it’s not a large department that the feedback goes to, you know, but the my, my feeling is this, when we get feedback, we’re co creating together, right? And so if I’m feeling undervalued in some way, I need to figure out what I need to do in order to, you know, be what do I need to do to feel more valued, and then do those actions, right. So the ownership side of feedback, I think it’s really important. I did try to reflect if there was something that we were doing as a group, a group at the Southwest, you know, airline terminal to figure out if we were somehow eliciting this. And realizing that there’s nothing I could change on that one either. So ladies, I so appreciate our conversation today. I just want to make sure I see that I have an Amazon link for the four factors book. Is it out or coming out?

Ashley/Amelia: November 1 Is the publish date?

Allison: Okay. This would be just in time as people are listening to this, it will be out within a week of that.

Ashley/Amelia: Oh, that’s so cool. I hope that works. We, um, we purposely made that trust Id open source so that anybody can access it, have it use it, you can even download it from our website. So we very much hope that people start measuring the four factors as a as a starting point.

Allison: Okay, fantastic. Amelia, thank you so much. Did you have something to add there?

Ashley/Amelia: I just wanted to add one last thing, which is your listeners probably can tell we’re super passionate about trust. But the other thing we didn’t get a chance to talk about was that it kind of those organizations that are kind of outperforming their peers on trust are 400% more likely to get it out perform on overall performance. So it’s not just bro trust, because trust matters, it’s grow trust because it will help grow your organization overall.

Allison: Ultimately, and I think that is a fantastic wrap up thought that just trust in in general and gross everything in addition to your employees. That’s fantastic. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time. I am going to include the link to the book that is coming out on November 1 in the show notes and I just so appreciate our conversation.

Ashley/Amelia: Alli, it was nice to meet you. Thank you for having us and we’ll look forward to listening to you. Neither of us will look forward to listen to ourselves. We will check it out.

Allison: Thank you have a good day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai