Thought Leadership with Michael Schein

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This transcript was auto-generated from the original video recording using Otter Voice Meeting Notes. While the transcript has not been human edited, we hope it will still help you to quickly find or reference useful information from the interview.

0:06 

Welcome to Deliberate Leaders. I am your host Alison Dunn, Executive Business Coach and founder of the Deliberate Leaders podcast where we are bringing you interviews to help you on your leadership journey. Our guest today is Michael Schein, who is the CEO of Micro Fame Media. He is also a contributor to Forbes, Fortune and Inc magazine’s, his business Micro Fame Media turns consultants into thought leaders and businesses into recognized authorities in their fields. So, Michael, if it’s okay, I’d like to do our first segment of this interview as almost a quick study on at I call it our deliberate conversations segments. And this is an opportunity for you to share one deliberate leadership nugget with our listeners. Is that okay? Are you good with that? I am. Okay. Fantastic. What is your top leadership tip that you give people?

1:05 

A leadership tip that I give people or that use that you use or gift either side.

1:13 

So, I think that as a leader, and I don’t always know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but it’s all that I’ve got, I really try to think about what they care about, rather than what I care about. So for example, in our company, something that we call the creative lab, and we have it mainly because I think it’s a good idea. It means that anyone who works in our company can spend a portion of the time you know, working on something that they’re interested in, but where they differ differs from Google is that you actually become an owner in this product that you work on and all that So, a lot of the products are artistic in nature or programs, not all of them, but some of them. But you know, often in interviews if I can sense that somebody has an artistic bent or somebody is a really good writer, but perhaps they really wanted to be a playwright, I will not try to convince them why the dream should be to pitch their playwriting ambition and become a copywriter. I try to show them how being part of an organization can help them their dreams. So hey, if you work to build this mechanism with me this business mechanism, I see this mechanism as a vehicle for realizing creative projects, right. So as a result, one’s gonna work really, really hard because they’re building something to help them get to where they want to go. But if someone has more of a business plan if they’re more money or oriented, about bonuses, right, and potential bonuses, so I think we all want to try to convince people To be into the same stuff we’re into. And sometimes you can get frustrated when people are harboring their own dreams to the point where people who are on your team sometimes have to feel they need to lie to you. But if you can channel that ambition, that honest ambition toward your own ends and toward the organization, then everyone sort of wins.

3:19 

All right, so you kind of wrapped him up. So the tip is, is that figure out what’s important to them? And then the why is that you’re getting their ownership into helping them achieve their project. And that also helps you correct?

3:35 

Yeah, I think it’s really figuring out what’s important to them in all, and honestly, because a lot of times people will lie to you or not be totally forthright. They’ll try to predict what you want them to think is important, versus really what is important to them. And I think you need to uncover that if you want people to be educated to you and your organization.

4:00 

Very cool. I love that. I’m so onto your work and you, you do a lot of crafting and creating and helping people develop their thought leadership for themselves in their company. So what does it mean today to be a thought leader?

4:19 

It’s funny, um, I have the word thought leader over our site. And I use that word because it’s something that people understand. It’s kind of like that old Supreme Court ruling about obscenity. I know it when I see it. I also think I’m being completely honest, a bit of a business. But I mean, I think it’s lost a little bit of meaning. I mean, we use it because people often come to us and say, I want to be a leader. But I don’t know what it means. I think that really what we’re talking about is someone being looked at in their niche in their corner of the world because there are a lot of corners of the world. Now. You used to have to be Famous on a large scale to be successful. Now you can be micro famous, which is micro fame media, right? I mean, Gary Vaynerchuk, for example, is really famous in my world in the marketing in the digital marketing world. My mom doesn’t know who he is. So I like to want to get people to come to me saying that, hey, I want to be a thought leader. I try to get them to reframe their thinking, ironically, and think more in terms of micro fame. You want to be the most recognized authority in your corner of the world, you want that little world all of the most influential people in that world, but people who follow your grow industry or your micro feel to have heard of your name, and to kind of have an association with it.

5:49 

What’s so I think that that seems more achievable. Just in general, when you think about it’s like a famous person in the world right in my little corner. So kind of takes that The scariness out of it. I think a little um, what do you think are the greatest opportunities that you help your clients achieve while trying to find this like micro fame elements?

6:16 

You say the question in another way?

6:18 

Absolutely. So how are you helping your clients achieve that? What types of opportunities are you bringing? Are you helping them craft to create that micro frame?

6:28 

Yeah, so I guess I use a two pronged approach. I really attack this from two different angles. So, on one hand, something I always say to clients or say to clients is, I’m willing to admit something that a lot of other marketers aren’t even though there are a lot of great marketers out there. And that’s that marketers don’t know what they’re doing, including me and including everybody. And so what I mean by that is that you can be really good at marketing basically. That we call marketing you know, drumming up attention and turning that into dollars you can have a knack for it you can have read all the books you can be really good with the technology. But the idea was something as squishy as objective as marketing that you can do a B and C and get d every single time is absurd because you know for example, you see all these courses make a six figure income by I don’t know why Facebook ads plus benefits stacks plus video equals whatever the NIT anyone is selling a course on us these three social media tools to get this result it’s already obsolete because everyone knows about it. So you have no competitive advantage. Or every industry is different or every circumstance is different. What we do and what I do and what I’ve done for myself, it I start off with a hypothesis. So what is your What is your point of view that that is different than everyone else in your field? And what are sort of the mechanisms to get you there? Is it a podcast? You know, ad campaign or what is it? And then what we tried to do over like a four month period or so for our clients, and we always do this for our new initiatives, is you roll out tiny experiments, you know, I mean, if you’re gonna run around, with your pants down, you want to make sure that the whole world doesn’t see it, you want to make sure that only three people see it before you realize that no one likes to see you in your underwear. You know what I mean? So we try to do a series of experiment. We’re just as happy to get wrong results as we are to get right results. But by the end of the period, you know, that you combination on a small scale, that’s getting you attention in your world, and then you can blow it up. And then I guess the second part of that, it’s okay, those are experiments, but what kind of experiments so it’s funny, I never wanted to own a bit Like that was you know, my, my father was in business I thought it was really boring even though I didn’t understand it. I wanted to do something artistic. I wanted to be a writer my whole life and then I got into music in a band that it took seriously and I was into punk rock and that kind of thing. So I see myself as Miss genius. And you know what that tough though it a lot especially in like punk music and people like David Bowie and the people I like the market the art or one in this. And that was cool. You know what I mean? Like David Bowie would show up late on purpose before he was famous and press release about all the people that were going to come but that is Ziggy Stardust image. And a lot of the rock managers were I was always interested in hyperspace, you know, people who I don’t even call it marketing who kind of played fast and loose with the rules. And that got me interested in cult leaders and propaganda artists and I started to think, early on in my career. Those people are obviously the marketers is it that those are evil people, or that some unsaved people come to those kind of techniques of mass psychology better than others because they see the way the world really is. And I realized that that was the case that you could sort of apply those mass psychology techniques to for good things. So that’s what I did early in my career. And now I’ve kind of become this. You mentioned, Forbes, Inc, in these places I write for I also write for psychology today. And I write about this concept of pipe and I’m writing a book, and it’s coming out in November and that’s sort of my, my thing and my area of expertise. So I conduct experiments, but they’re always based on non marketing, so to speak.

10:44 

Alright, so experimenting and what are the so if someone wanted to focus on trying to figure out how to build authority and influence, what would be a typical, most common experiences that you would experiment That you would suggest trying, I guess, obviously custom to person right of what they want to achieve. But, um, what would you what would be like the first few that you would suggest that people consider doing?

11:12 

Well, I think the first thing you have to realize is that all of the technology that we often focus on are just tools or weapons, you know, I mean, they’re not. Yeah, I mean, they’re not the marketing, you know, Instagram, Twitter, podcasts, blogs, standing on a street corner with a sign billboards, whatever, you know, networking meetings, these are all just like arrows in a quiver. But unfortunately, people focus on that first. Like, they say, I gotta get this social media stuff going well, you don’t if you knew that you could. All the business you needed by having coffee with influential people, and each deal was worth $500,000 and you only needed three you ever spend time on You know, yeah, you know, so that’s an extreme example. So I think the very first thing you need to do is figure out okay, who is what micro nice, you know what I mean? Who’s that like in crowd people that you need to ask. And one way I do that, like, let’s say you decided, um, you know, blogs, podcasts, whatever the medium of the day is, you can get a spreadsheet and sort of all of the blogs and podcasts in your sort of neck of the woods across the x axis and the y axis, you know, the land flies and the other way. And then um, figure out who mentioned to and the, the columns and rows that have the most of them. Those are your influencers, like, you know, my podcast may be mentioned only once. But someone else’s podcast James Altucher is might be made 15 times as someone who you want to crack, right. So the first thing is how about Do I who do I want to be in front of right? And then I guess the second thing before you figure out what experiments to do you have to figure out what’s your contrarian point of view? Like what’s, what’s the thing that you’re known for, that you can add to the conversation that’s going on, but stand out. So two questions I often ask to get there is, what is a point of view in your industry that makes you really, really angry, that people believe in and that you just think is wrong? So in my case, was, um, early in my career, Gary Vaynerchuk, who I brought up before, his whole thing was hustle, hustle, hustle. He used to say you got to go to the toilet and tweet at three in the morning because that’s how, and I thought that was terrible advice. Because if you’re a young person, and you’re actually making the products, why should you be tweeting 25 hours a day? So I wrote an article I didn’t call why Gary Vaynerchuk flat out wrong, and it launched my career, you know, because he responded to me. So I think the first thing you got to figure out is That contrarian point of view. And then, I don’t know sometimes you just got to start with the technology that’s easiest and the most compelling and if it’s easiest to ramp up a podcast and you can do three episodes, do it. If you’re more of a writer, start with that. If you’re a networker start with that. Just make it small and make it fast.

14:16 

Yeah, excellent advice. I am intrigued on the concept of you call the contrary, and I kind of in my research and looking at what you help people do is to pick the fight. And to kind of just expand on that concept a little bit. So can you tell me how do you identify quake? And can you give us some examples? Because I think what you just did with the Gary Vee one, just give me one more.

14:41 

Yeah. Um, I think there’s a difference between picking a fight and being a jerk. Oh, I think people confuse the two I mean, you can pick a fight with an idea you know, I don’t think that means being a troll like a read the article. I wrote it out Gary Vaynerchuk He’s incredibly respectful reason. I mean, I think he’s a brilliant business person. I think his Wine Library TV was an amazing thing. I think he’s fantastic at promoting himself. I just have a problem with the message he was putting out in the world, but I wasn’t a troll. And that’s important. And, you know, I’m so that said, it’s kind of like if it bleeds it. I mean, people are more attracted to a debate and a speech. I mean, you know, you see it all the time president does this, for better or worse. I mean, he constantly picking fights with people, and he is a bit of a jerk, but it works. You know, I will not fart. But you know, I mean, I’ll give you an example. One of my examples that I really like so there’s this guy named Shep Gordon, who was a rock manager for the band, Alice Cooper. And um, you know, he broke them in the US, but he just couldn’t break them in in England. And, you know, he had Wembley Arena, you No rented and they have like 500 units and there was like a week left. Oh, you know, 500 tickets sold. So what he did was, his whole thing was that his parents hate a band that he says everybody is going to go through a period in their life where they hate their parents, especially in the 70s. That’s changed a little bit. But at that time, I was thinking so he said, if he could get every parent in America to hate the band out in the world in England, if he could pick a fight with parents, then all the kids would like them so he didn’t want to get them in Rolling Stone. He wanted to get them in Time Magazine as the scourge of parents. So in this particular case, he didn’t know what to do to sell tickets to this thing, this show and it was going to be a massive money loser. So he got a bill for that the singer who is now known as Alice Cooper, that was the band at the time naked with a boa constrictor, you know, around his sensitive area and nothing else and he blew it up to this giant billboard on the back of a truck. And then he told the truck, make sure the truck breaks down. If you get arrested, we’ll make it worth your while in rush hour. So we had him through Piccadilly Circus, it broke down, broke down in rush hour. And, you know, that’s like the busiest like Time Square. So there were helicopters. It was like, Oh, this is a disgrace, I admit this naked picture of Alice Cooper in the middle of the busiest area of London. And, you know, every parent in Parliament did a session on it about how this was the disgrace of the EU corrupting the youth and horrible, and they sold out the arena and became one of the biggest acts in England. So that’s an example.

17:36 

That’s a great example.

17:39 

That’s why you should look at the kind of people these traditional people who have a marketing job well, some of them are good, a lot of them aren’t really judged on results. If you’re managing Alice Cooper. You got to get results. You got to look at these people, you know, who think of themselves as Mark.

17:57 

So I think that was almost a risky You know, like breaking down in the middle of traffic hour. So I kind of relate that to a lot of things that we do like you do it, and you’re not sure if this is going to get you the result. So my question for you is that if you’re trying strategies for those who are trying strategies, like when do we know? What’s the? When do we know when to stop something that’s not working?

18:20 

Like, how long do you give it?

18:27 

I don’t know. I mean, I think part of it, it depends on what scale it is and on how much pressure there is. I mean, if you have a list, so some experiments aren’t that bold as this experiment. So if I’m reaching out to a list of 100 podcast guests, and I’ve tried every pitch and not one person responds to me, maybe I’ve casting isn’t the right, medium if I reach out to six, with one approach, Okay, you know what I mean? You should probably try I a little harder. But I think sometimes I hate to say this and no one’s here. And sometimes I think there’s a bit of gut involved. I mean, you can tell when there’s momentum. I mean, you just have to keep your eye out for those sync signals. You know, this wasn’t the first thing Shep Gordon did. I mean, this was a very big thing, but Alice Cooper was already in the United States. But when he started out, he happened upon managing this band. He was a pot dealer in a hotel that they were both staying at. And someone said, they actually said this, I think it was Jimi Hendrix happened to be staying at the hotel. And he needed a front for his pot dealing business. And Jimi Hendrix said, You’re right, and he said, a good rock manager. They’re all she No. So he needed a band. So he found a band that he hated this weird band called Alice Cooper who were like ugly looking and like, you know, played weird music and he’s like, how can I make these people popular? So he had this idea about parents so you know, in the early days, he didn’t do this thing with pick berries, everybody and guillotines on stage You know, it’s fake chopping off fake heads and it was in front of a bunch of like peace and wild hippie. So that was that attention. So in other words, he started small, to I mean, they started out with Patrick ality on stage, they would try to make hippies angry. You know, it wasn’t parents at first, they tried to break the peace in love thing. And if you knew the press was there, he will amp up the blood and guts, you know, so, but he had nothing to lose. At that point there. They had no fans, you know, if it wouldn’t have worked, if everyone would have just nodded their heads and had another beer he probably would have used for approach or maybe he wouldn’t be a rock manager today.

20:36 

Right. Interesting. Do you have a long a long history in the music industry? Is that kind of your area of niche?

20:44 

No, no. I mean, like I said, I was in a band and I’m interested in music. And the way I got interested in artists was because I looked at music people did but then I moved on to propaganda artists and cult leaders and all kinds of things. Because I just I just finished. I just delivered my manuscript for this book about four days ago. So these stories are very much on my mind. Ah,

21:09 

yeah, Got it. Got it. Cool. That’s awesome. I could tie back now.

21:13 

But yeah, I was never in the industry other than trying to make it in a band and failing miserably, but next story.

21:23 

That’s great. Um, one of one of the nuggets that I that we picked up was that you talk about being more generous and how that serves you. So can you talk about generosity?

21:35 

And how to build followers?

21:37 

Yeah, um, in regards to my own career, or just in general?

21:43 

Yes.

21:45 

Yeah. Um, well, I think the old saw about this thing that we call networking is true. I mean, I think there are many people who are successful, who don’t know the right people. And a lot of times people think of that in terms of like, Oh, you know, or make it I don’t know the right people. But it’s incredibly easy to know the right people now with social media and the things that are out there if you’re willing to. And this is said so often, but it’s true give before receiving, so like. Yeah, I think that, I mean, I’ll give you an example. I mean, I was at a conference.

22:36 

One of the speaker’s was a gentleman named David Siegel, who, you know, was the CEO of investopedia. And that was the CEO of meetup and he’s just a great guy, and we happen to end up at the same dinner in this same table having hors d’oeuvres or something and he was just a cool guy and very much more of a corporate giant than I am You know, but we were just talking. And I have not, you know, I didn’t want anything specific from him, but a good person to know. And he’s a good guy. So whenever I met somebody that I thought he should know, I introduced them. Now, I didn’t just fire off seven random introduction, which is something that people do. I found out about his interest. I found out where he wanted to go in his career. I happen to know other people. So say, hey, do you want to meet the person I had a client to? We’re doing podcasts. And I just had friends who were doing podcasts and I knew he was trying to put certain aspects of his own thought leadership. So I booked him as a guest with no financial, you know, reward for my clients. There was a financial reward in that we needed guests, but for other people, there wasn’t and I just got him booked. So I don’t know what the payoff was for that. Other than that, in close network is David Siegel. He’s given invaluable advice. I had someone in organization who wasn’t working out he should he told me how to handle it. One day, he may recommend a client and there have been circumstances, various other David’s peoples of the world have recommended to clients because of this. David isn’t one of them. But I have a network of people who’s really who are really accomplished and powerful around me. And that’s just vital to success. And that only comes from generosity, but you can’t do it in this kind of way. Like people one time someone introduced something to me someone can be and I picked up one of those questions for you. How can I help you? What can I do for you? And it was like, you can start by picking up the phone anyway, this is obviously your tactic. Right?

24:42 

Like anything else in life, it’s a nuanced thing.

24:46 

That’s great. Isn’t it funny how, how you how you say something can make all the difference. Right.

24:53 

Right. Exactly. And it was true. I mean, he wanted to he was going to introduce someone to me and then he wanted like me to reciprocate kind and it was just you can tell from the minute that he started that he was kind of shy.

25:08 

Don’t be that guy.

25:09 

Don’t be that guy.

25:12 

Um, in, in my industry, I call it coaching and consulting, the pressure is always on. And suddenly you have to write a book, you have to write a book and to build authority. And so I guess my question is, is, do you think it’s always a good thing for someone to document their, you know, per se thought leadership in a book? Is that where you

25:33 

Push your suggester? That key strategy?

25:38 

Not really. I mean, I think it depends. I mean, a lot of times people will call me up and they say, I need a book. And what I’ll say to them is, do you want a book or do you want what a book can you know what I mean? Because, you know, it depends on a lot of things. I mean, you know, if you’re, if you want to be a really successful sheet metal business, a really brass tacks kind of thing. Certain aspects of marketing will help you having a book, I don’t know, I don’t like to have blank things also. So there are a lot of really, really bad business books, a lot of bad business, and it’s become diluted. Now what I will say though, if you want to be someone who is selling ideas on a very high level, I found that no matter how good you are at what you do, no matter you know, whether you have a podcast unless it’s got millions and millions of people, whatever, if you want to get top paid speaking gigs, which often convert into business, you almost need a book. And it’s better to have a published book. Now what people you know, self published is better than nothing. But a published book is better, you know, for credentials, I mean, things like that, like they’re just, you know, and then a lot of times if you have top speaking gigs and you’re a consultant or a coach or whatever, that’s where the top paying gigs come from. So it’s it. People love the written word. If you’ve written the book on something, especially if it’s a good book, especially if it has the stamp of authority short, it helps a whole lot, you know, but I never like to say always, it depends on a lot of things. And I think having a really bad business book. I don’t know, that worked really well for a while, but people are starting to see through the rules a little bit, I think.

27:23 

So that book is not as good as no book.

27:27 

Or bad book is worse than no book.

27:30 

I wouldn’t say that. I mean, unfortunately, I think people operate on heuristics, you know what I mean? Meaning, a mental shortcut. So I think, I mean, I don’t know I think sometimes depending on the person and depending on how much thought they put into it, they’ll see a book and they’ll hire you because they see a book. Um, that being said, if you live your business life, trying to produce mediocrity and surf on that it’s only a certain matter of time before the House of Cards I think falls apart. You know, why not just do a good book? or hire someone to do a good book?

28:05 

Right? And is that? Is that an element that you hope that you work with your clients to create their producer publishing, looking to have a book published? Is that an area that you handle?

28:16 

Yeah, I mean, the way the way that we handle it is we always start with that scientific process. So we have that four to five month testing procedure. And that’s got like a set, you know, investment. And we figure out what’s that unique combination of tools or weapons that works. A book is one of them, but 40, you know, and then after that, it’s very much a menu. I mean, some people take our advice, and it’s more like a consulting capacity, they implement it themselves, or they hire other people. But we also offer the menu and a book is on that menu, as one of the tools and it often is very important.

28:52 

I like how you talk about the aspects that you help our weapons. Yeah. It’s pretty funny. I’ve got one more Quick question regarding writing a book. So, um, if someone decides to write a book, what’s the best way to set the book up for success?

29:10 

First way is to have a good book. I mean, I know that sounds crazy, but I don’t think the world needs another book called leadership strategies for the 21st century or outside the box thinking for you know, I think you need a high concept. I mean, Robert Greene’s 48 Laws of Power, right? I mean, I’m going to give you the 48 laws, that if you follow these laws, you will have all the power in the world based on historical examples. I think another thing to do is do a lot of advance preparation like I don’t think you want to have the first time you ever thought about your email list or your speaking platform or your public persona or the articles you wrote right is three weeks before your book comes out. I think that puts you at a disadvantage I think then you’re then you’re depending on luck, you know, for example, I have this book coming out in November But fortunately, you know, I’ve been writing articles that are on this topic for five years. I and people like them, some people say I’m their favorite writer, which is a wonderful thing to get. Don’t say that to boast, I say, I’ve put a lot of time and energy into this. Now I have a mailing list, that is this thing called the hype, no book list where all the research that I’ve done over the years, a lot of them are very out there esoteric book, people can sign up and get these, you know, recommendations. Um, I have a pretty good social media presence. So but and I have a lot of connections, people like you who have podcasts and many more of them. So I mean, leading up I’m going to marshal all those resources and make sure they all hit at the same time I don’t I kind of trickle a few podcasts and I wanted the podcasts around the time the book comes out. But I can only could have only done that if I had it because I have those connections that will allow that to happen. So unfortunately, I think you got to do a lot of things at the same time. Time and run a lot of trains down the track at the same, you know, time.

31:06 

I think I think that becomes overwhelming for a lot of people. But I do agree. I mean, how many strategies? So I’ve kind of got a rule of thumb that I usually say like 10 minimally. Right. Yeah. And so how many do you suggest that people who are trying to build authority have?

31:25 

I don’t think, um, I think it’s what makes it a little less intimidating, is if you sort of start early and do things as they come up. So I don’t, I don’t have a number. You know, I think it’s back to experimentation as well. Like, I’ve tried so many things on the road to reading writing this book for our business for me that had failed, right? Like I had this thing called cliffhanger marketing that I was going to do. We showed a cartoon that we did in Madison Square Garden and I was so excited in it. generated exactly zero dollars and zero awareness, you know? So I mean, there’s all these, but that’s fine. I mean, it’s at the time. It was disappointing. But I mean, I’ve done a lot of things, but like, yeah, I figured out my combination. So for me, it’s only like three or four things. You know, it’s a pipe book list. It’s the podcasts. It’s LinkedIn, I have a strategy on and it’s the email list. But the only reason I know it’s those four things is because I’ve tried a million other things that weren’t as effective. So

32:30 

Yeah, well, I appreciate that. I feel you just made me give me some affirmation. I feel like the few things you mentioned are also the things that I’ve kind of narrowed down. So thank you. I think they’re also the ones that you’ve mentioned are the biggest way to kind of figure out leverage right. As opposed to one to one coffee meetings, which could be incredibly effective for the right person, for sure. Yeah.

32:52 

But I should say, I know people who Facebook ads, work for them incredible. They haven’t worked for us very well. But for other people, they’re fantastic. It really just depends, you know, I mean, if you just gotta try, you know, it’s got to fit your market your time. I mean, it’s, there’s no way to predict that. But it’s better to start with a lot of lead time. So you don’t feel that pressure and you can experiment with things.

33:20 

And that is I think my biggest takeaway is lots of the time and just experiment small experiments that you’re fine tuning along the way. Yeah. That’s awesome. And, Michael, you mentioned that you have a book coming out in November. I don’t know if I’ve caught the title or if you’ve if you but I feel like I missed it. Maybe the first time. So what is the are you willing to share the name of the title?

33:39 

Oh, of course. Yeah, it is the Hype Handbook. I’m looking up right now to see if I can get the subtitle because even though I came up with it, you can’t remember long know, the exact words and I think it’s kind of it kind of explains what the book is. So hold on. As we’re sitting here. I am looking this up.

33:55 

You got twice so I was wondering if it was if that was the title.

34:00 

So it is the Hype Handbook and the subtitle because it explained for you know, as of now because they don’t always, you know, they don’t always stay the same, but it’s 12 indispensable success secrets from the world’s greatest propagandists, self promoters, cult leaders, Mischief Makers and boundary breakers.

34:20 

Love it.

34:21 

Yeah. So I mean, that’s what it is. Yeah, yeah. But it’s not, you know, but I went through history and basically looked at all of these, you know, tricksters and just makers and cult leaders and rock managers and propaganda artists. And I said, Okay, all of these people, what are the common sort of strategies that they’ve used Good, bad and mediocre? mediocre, good people, bad people, amoral people, and how do you reapply those for good, you know, and that’s what it is. There’s 12 strategies that if you could use this as a Bible sort of become a hype artist to become a master marketer for anything really

35:00 

Fantastic. All right. So the title of it the Hype Handbook, a hype handbook. That will be out in November.

35:09 

I think I mean, that’s the idea. That’s what they that’s what you’re aiming at.

35:13 

Fantastic. And Michael, what is the best way for people to be able to connect with you? And I also wanted you to share the name of your podcasts. And you mentioned that as well. I think that would be fun.

35:25 

So my podcast, I no longer a co host. So it still exists. Yeah. It’s called access to anyone and great and it’s run by my co host, Michael Roderick. I would check it out. It’s a you know, the reason it was a hard decision for me to stop doing it. I did it for years. And it was because similar I mean, I took my own thing in terms of branding. It’s a lot about really how to get access to anyone the name says it all on it’s like hyper networking, and that’s really Michael Rodricks thing, and it’s part of what I do, but I realized that the thing that resonated most with people about my persona is that sort of Miss g vs element that like, kind of homemade care thing, and that wasn’t what this is really a very, very positive podcast. I mean, it’s, it’s and so I guess I was I was not positive enough, but it was we were sad and I left it was proactive it was because I couldn’t do everything I was doing. It was one of the hardest decisions I made, because it’s a great, great show and everyone should check it out. And it’s pretty popular. I guess there’s two ways to reach me. I mean, one is you shouldn’t drink my book list because that’s a lot of fun. It’s, I try to be a little bit funny with it, and you get a lot of great information. It’s, um, and will you put this stuff in the show notes as well or? Yeah, so it’s, um, hype reads.com selection list. So HYPRE ad fs.com slash list. So that so that’s, um, you know, sign up for the book list and I’ll send you that. And then our company is micro fame media.com. You can always find out about us on there.

37:00 

Wonderful, Michael. It’s always fun to talk to a marketing guru. person who’s writing the book on the hype Handbook, which is fantastic. Can’t wait to see that. So I just want to thank you so much for joining me here today. And it’s nice to be able to connect with people throughout the country even though we’re not out and about Weaver Yeah. So, thank you so much, Michael.

37:26 

It was my pleasure. This was so much fun. Hey, stay safe and healthy.