How to Persuade Your Audience with Carmine Gallo

Reading Time: 40 Minutes

Carmine Gallo, author of Talk Like TED, answers your top questions about business communication.

About Carmine Gallo

Carmine has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, and Bloomberg. He is a keynote speaker, Harvard instructor, and communication coach for some of the world’s top leaders.

Read the Transcript

This transcript was auto-generated from the original video recording using Otter Voice Meeting Notes. While the transcript has not been human edited, we hope it will still help you to quickly find or reference useful information from the interview.


Hi, welcome back to Deliberate Leaders. I am your host, Allison Dunn and Owner of Deliberate Directions. And I am excited to introduce this afternoon, Carmine Gallo, who is the author of the best selling book Talk like Ted. He’s also written several others. Storytellers Secrets and Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs, which is very cool. And the author of the Apple Experience. He has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times and by Bloomberg. He is a keynote speaker himself. He is a Harvard instructor. And he also is a communication coach for some of the world’s top leaders. So Carmine, welcome. It’s great to have you on the show.


Hi, Allison. Thanks for inviting me. 


My pleasure. You emphasize that it’s important to always express the big picture before you go into detail. How would you give people tips on when they’re talking too much in the weeds or when they’re talking too big of a picture and they haven’t brought people along in the story?


Yeah, I like to think of the big picture. Here’s something new. Um, I used to call the big picture, the Twitter friendly headline when I wrote the book Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs, which is one of my favorites is one of my first early books on communication. This book is so interesting because it still lives on today in a big way. I read an article not too long ago, but when I wrote this book, so this book came out about, you know, about a decade ago or a little less, but recently I read on Business Insider, an entrepreneur who had successfully attracted half a mil, half a billion dollars over $400 million in funding for his company from venture capitalists. When they asked him how he did it, it was on a webinar. He said he got to start with this book. This is the first thing. I went through this page by page and I just copied it. So the high earners years after this book came out, it’s still very effective. 


He’s definitely one of the most persuasive speakers that I can ever remember. It’s referenced a lot in how to do it well, so that’s awesome.


He is and I haven’t found a better storyteller since then. So if you can find that one person who has the whole package, who was passionate and excited, and simple, but complex messages that were intriguing and interesting, and turn a presentation into a performance and practiced and delivered it exceptionally well, if you’re going to find that person in one package. I’d love to write a whole book on that person. I haven’t found them yet. A lot of people have elements but it’s really hard to find that once and I think Steve Jobs is still the greatest corporate storyteller of our time. Getting back to your question. So roundabout way of getting back to the question, which is do you suggest that people have like one overarching statement? Steve Jobs never introduced a product without thinking through what is the one thing that we want people to remember or to know about that particular product? In 2008, Steve Jobs introduced the apple MacBook Air for the first time it was the first MacBook Air. So at that time, what was the differentiator? It was the world’s thinnest notebook, had a big slide on the on the back of the screen, world’s thinnest notebook when you walked into the Apple Store, world’s thinnest notebook. Everything has to work all around the one thing you want people to know about that particular product, the iPod was 1000 songs in your pocket. That was not a tagline. That wasn’t a slogan. It was actually part of the presentation that Steve Jobs delivered. That is the one thing that he wanted you to know about this product. But it has to be that one differentiator. If it sounds too much like any other product or service, then that doesn’t help you very much. So again, it’s this whole concept of trying to figure out what is the one thing I want people to know, I think it’s hard. But it’s the foundation for the rest of your conversation and really the foundation for your marketing efforts, your sales efforts, because people and there’s a lot of science behind this. People want to know what is the one thing what is the one thing that is the hook? Tell me one reason that I should work for your company. Tell me one reason that I should buy your product versus a competitor, you can fill in the blanks, you’ve got plenty of time to fill in the weeds and the details like you just suggested, but you better give me one overarching reason that I can remember that I can kind of latch on to a lot of science to back this up as well, because this is the way the human brain is evolved. And we look for big picture before details. And you can look this up through John Medina, molecular biologists at the University of Washington. I quote him a lot I read his studies but again, that’s kind of the way the brain looks for information, big picture first, then you can dive into the details. Does that make sense?


It makes perfect sense. And I think I that is a good takeaway for me to make sure that when I am coaching clients that it’s like but what’s the one thing like what’s the one thing that’s so keep making sure they’re expressing the big picture? So, yeah, thank you. You share a story in your book about how Google did a study to learn the habits of the company’s most effective teams. Yes, yeah. I’m wondering, what were the engagement keys for the audience? 


That was in this book. Right? You’re talking about five stars.


Yeah. Yeah.


Okay. So that was, I love the reason why I found that study on about Google, and I’ve talked to people at Google before is that it was called Project Aristotle. And as a guy who is immersed in persuasion theory, Aristotle is the father of persuasion. So I’m not sure if they I’m not sure if they did that on purpose or not. But project Aristotle was, what are the attributes of great teams. And what they found was that the attributes of great teams all come down to a manager and they come down to how a manager connects with They’re their teams. And it was called Project Aristotle. And so it wasn’t so much about the technical credibility of those teams. Those are the table stakes. Everyone in a particular team obviously has to be able to do the work that they are there to do that that’s basic, but how do you get the most out of the team. And it turned out to be the manager or the supervisor, the leader of that particular team, regardless of the title, who’s leading the team. And the more that manager or the leader, let’s call him the leader of the team, Mr. Hurd. The leader of the team is the one who’s making an emotional connection to the rest of the team. Establishing rapport building trust. So all of these factors comes down to communication skills. Now I’m a storyteller. I always I look for, I look at communications through the lens of storytelling. I think it’s a very important subject. And as I was reading through the project, Aristotle at Google, I was trying to figure out, Okay, so what makes an effective leader of a team? They came down to a good leader, a great leader builds rapport, and how do they build rapport, they communicate their own story, sometimes in a vulnerable way. And they get other people to share their stories as well, which sort of makes sense to me. It, it makes sense to me on so many different levels, not only from a scientific perspective, and remember, Google does not do anything unless there’s data behind it. I mean, they’re really focused on data. But the whole thing about storytelling and storytellers makes intuitive sense to me. And it reminded me of another story that I have in that book, I interviewed the CEO of a very large, prestigious hospital system. It’s UCLA Medical Systems. In Los Angeles, and UCLA at the time, years ago, was in the bottom 25% of hospitals in the country. By the time Dr. David Feinberg, who was the CEO, by the time he left the system seven or seven years as a CEO, it had gone to like top 1% of all hospitals in the country. And how we did that was through what he called storytelling. Hi meetings started with stories, we need to look at Stories of Real patients and real experiences, because at that time, it was all about the metrics and the numbers and how are we doing this month, and they would look at sales and all other kinds of metrics that hospitals look at. Instead, he said, now we’re going to start with stories. And we’re going to start building a culture of storytelling and storytellers. And that began to change the culture slowly and so over seven years, he took it from He took a hospital from the bottom of the barrel to one of the best hospitals in the country. But he said it starts with storytelling. So that particular example, is just one of many that reminds me that I think this project, Aristotle at Google makes a lot of sense that it’s not just getting the smartest people on a team who know their jobs. But how do you motivate and inspire that team to work together? It comes down to one person, the leader of the team. That’s how important that person is. But the leader of the team has to build rapport and they build rapport through emotional engagement. And how do you build emotional engagement through the stories that you tell? So it’s, it gets, you know, everything we’re talking about here, Allison, like I, like I mentioned at the beginning, this isn’t this isn’t public speaking one on one, right? This is a little more advanced. And so you have to really start to understand and learn what it means to be a store. telephonic communicator,


In one of the leadership programs that I run, one of the engagement keys that we use is a storytelling component. So the leader goes first, and so they share their story. But we also have other people tell their story as well. And often in that particular setting, people learn things that they would have never otherwise heard if they hadn’t had the opportunity to kind of go through that exercise. And I would agree with you, it’s not the presentation skills that make the impact of the story. It’s the emotion that someone opens up and shows that raw, authentic self, so pretty cool. So um, I want to stay on this storytelling line of question. So you said the perfect talk has three factors. Can you talk us through those?


The perfect talk has three factors. Okay, well remind me of were Aristotle’s three factors.


You have to understand that as a writer, people like lists. Okay, that’s another great tip for everybody. People like to read lists. So if you can take your content and put it into a list of five habits, or three disciplines or three ways, so I’ve got a lot of lists, and I have it all written out. And I’m like, Oh, I don’t need to say that till now. Yeah, but actually the only buzzword I needed there was Aristotle. Okay, so this gets back to Aristotle. Um, I, the first part of that new book five stars is all about the sort of the history of persuasion. And my point is that everything we know about communicating with one another about inspiring another listener and creating compelling presentations. Whether it’s a PowerPoint presentation or a conversation with somebody you’re hoping to attract to your team, all persuasion goes back 3000 years to Aristotle. It goes back thousands of years. There is no speech, no presentation that doesn’t follow Aristotle’s formula. And so my point is we know how to do this. We know how to do this. We just got really distracted by PowerPoints and bullet points and, and graphics. But if you just get back to ancient formula of persuasion, there are three things. There are three undeniable elements that all persuasive conversations or presentations have to have. Aristotle defined the formula for us. He called it logos, ethos, pathos. Well, I’ll make it simple logos and I’ll start with ethos. ethos simply means that in order for me to persuade you of anything, to buy a product from me, versus my competitor to work for me to back my idea in any way, in order for me to persuade you of something, I need to have ethos which is character and credibility. So that’s why Be careful of what you post on social media. Your actions have to back your words people are going to judge you and they judge you quickly on perceived character may not even be true about you, but they there is there they will form a perception of your character and who you are ethos there’s not too much you can do about ethos in the moment. And ethos would be, let’s say you’re applying for a job. And well, that’s your resume. Here’s my experiences. These are the these are the bullet points. These are the jobs I’ve had in what I’ve done. That’s ethos credibility, fine. That’s a small part of persuasion, necessary, but a small part. The larger part was what Aristotle called logos, which is logic, making a rational Appeal to Reason. Rational appeal would be, you have this problem, my product solves this problem. Therefore, my product, therefore, you should buy my product because it will solve your problem, and you will be happy. You know, it’s kind of like taking you through just a logical progression of why you should listen to my argument. But here’s the key.


This was the fun part for me and really fascinating why we have to tell stories. Aristotle believed that persuasion cannot occur in any setting, unless you connect with people emotionally, when he called pay those patient pay those is the emotion. It is the storytelling. It is the way something is trance transferred from one person to another. He talked about metaphors thousands of years ago, he’s already talking about using metaphorical thinking, using analogies to make things complex and make them simple and easy to understand, that fell under pathos or again the elements of storytelling, the body language, our verbal delivery, everything that makes and informs an impression on people. And people do form an impression of you very, very quickly. All of that falls under the emotional part. So you can have character and credibility for what you do. You can have a logical reason for why people should join you in your company or buy your product. And then that’s where a lot of people get stuck. Well, why did I make that sale? Well, because you didn’t connect with that person. You cannot be persuasive unless you have all three elements. And it’s an interesting combination. I’ve studied a lot of TED speakers, I wrote a book called talk like Ted, which is about the TED Talks. And great TED speakers. Great TED speakers have an element of all three. They talk a little bit about themselves and their background, okay, that’s establishing credibility for who they are. They introduce numbers and data and logic. But most of the great speakers most of their content falls under pay those which is stories, stories that are connected to their theme and that connect the speaker to the listener. Stick with a very facts fact based argument. But if you don’t stir people’s emotions, they won’t they can’t connect with you, and you will not be ultimately persuasive. So you have to have all three. If there’s one thing you need to take away from today is that Aristotle gave us the formula for persuasion thousands of years ago. We need you need to kind of understand that and get back to that. And then use PowerPoint as a compliment. But don’t start with PowerPoint. First start with how do I build out a persuasive argument first, and then I can use all the bells and whistles to complement my argument.


Yeah, I love that. That’s such excellent advice.


In any advice that you would give to someone if they’re trying to pick a story, I understand you’re saying you have to have all three of those elements. But what can you tell makes for a good story are a powerful story is there any guidance you can, can give I mean, it’s something that causes people to their virginity. laughing or crying like What? What? What makes a great story? How do you know when you have one? Okay.


I’ll give you a three part formula. Yeah, I’d love that.


I don’t have the answer to that one. So you’re gonna have to give me a three part formula again. All great movies fall under a three part structure. In Hollywood, I talked to screenwriters, which is kind of fun. I talked to screenwriters for this last book I did. And screenwriters will tell you that there is a formula to every movie, every whether it’s frozen, or Bohemian Rhapsody, or whatever it is, there’s a formula in every movie, they all have to fall under the same three act formula. And that three act formula goes back to the beginning of time and act one is the setup, or the status the state of the world as it is today for the hero. Act Two is the conflict that’s when all the trouble trials and tribulations and hurdles and villains get introduced. That’s the bulk of the movie that’s about an hour. So the setup is half an hour, the bulk of the movie is another hour or so. And then the other the rest of the movie has to be. Yeah, the last third, the last 30 minutes of the movie is the resolution. And the resolution, of course, is when everything kind of gets tied up. And, and this is really key. There has to be a transformation at the end of every movie. There has to be a transformation. I won’t give away any spoilers on frozen because I had to watch it twice now with my two daughters. But it is very clear there is a character near the end of the movie who even says, I feel like we’ve undergone a transformation, how there has to be a transformation. In other words, the hero has to be a better person. Okay, so how does this apply to a business pitch or business presentation? Pretty easy. You know, we don’t have to spend Five years writing, you know, the next great hit movie, it can be very simple. When you are taught, let’s just assume you’re talking to a potential customer about your service or your product. You want them to start using your company versus a competitor that says setup could take 30 seconds, it could take two minutes. The setup is simply describing for your customer the way their world is today. Now you got them nodding in agreement. You’ve shown them that you understand them. You understand their problems or their challenges, or you understand their place in the world and how they do things. Okay, so here’s the setup. Here’s how you do things today. There’s some problems aren’t there? And then you start bringing in the hurdles or the challenges. Now here’s where Steve Jobs was brilliant. This is why Steve Jobs was set apart. Steve Jobs I could convince you that you had problems and villains on the horizon. You didn’t even know you had best. That’s genius. That’s like, oh, here’s a problem you’ve never thought of before. Wow. Now I really need that new iPhone. You know, he did that brilliantly in the iPhone presentation. 2007. I recommend that any of your viewers if you want to see a great business presentation, look it up on YouTube 2007 introduction of the iPhone, because Steve Jobs did not start by showing you the new iPhone. He started by talking about the current state act and one is the current state of the industry. All of you have phones. Many of you are using smartphones. Let’s take a look at some of the phones that you’re using today. And he had the BlackBerry remember the BlackBerry? Was that the rim? Yeah, Ron. Yeah, I think it was blackberry by rim. Yeah. So is the BlackBerry Every phone every everyone use that. And he showed how complicated it was. And so he went through all of the, the, the existing phones, and he called them suspects, which I thought was interesting. He’s even using the language of narrative. And he goes, here’s the usual suspects. What’s the problem? What are their? What’s the problem with that? And by the time he goes through act two, which is problems, villains hurdles, conflict, you’re kind of growing tense. It’s like, yeah, I have those problems too. And I don’t like it goes bother me too. Then you can end with Act Three, which is the resolution, we’re going to resolve all your problems and we’re going to make you a better person for it. You are going to be happier and more fulfilled and you’re going to have more time back and you’re going to be more successful through our product. And this is how we’re going to resolve all these problems. So In the big picture, it really does fall under Act One, two and three, how?


How do you help people find the meaningful story to share? And what should it be made up of to cut? You know, like, know that that’s a good story.


There’s only several types of stories throughout all of history. And there are types of stories that we can all use today. So obviously, the one that’s the most effective are personal stories, personal stories that tie into your idea. in entrepreneurship, these are called origin stories. Where did that idea come from? How did you come up with that idea? Why are you selling this particular product over another product? There’s always a personal story that connects with that. And yet I have found that very few people tell personal stories. But let me give you one in the in the realm of entrepreneurship, okay. There was a young man 12 years old, his father got hurt on the job. They he had no health insurance and no workers comp. And the family was living in subsidized housing in Brooklyn, New York at the time. And that son that 12 year old boy vowed to himself that if he was ever in a position to help other people, or people who worked for him, he would never allow them to fall through the cracks and not have health insurance and not be able to make ends meet. And that young man was Howard Schultz, who started Starbucks. And there is a reason there is a reason why Starbucks was the first major company to offer full health benefits to part time workers and college tuition subsidies, and all of the benefits that Starbucks offered. Howard Schultz tells that story to this day. He’s been telling it since I started following him. Maybe 20 years ago, he tells it often look it up on YouTube. Every time Howard Schultz gives an interview, or every time Howard Schultz gives a keynote. He’s no longer the CEO of Starbucks. But he goes back to that story, because it’s an origin story. It’s a personal story that reflects the reason your company exists, your the values that your company tries to instill in others. So it’s an it’s inspiring, motivating and also reinforces the values that your company stands for. So when you have a good origin story, and he actually has two origin stories, the other origin story that Howard Schultz always talks about is how Starbucks started. Everybody knows the story of Howard Schultz visiting Milan, Italy, and falling in love with a coffee culture there. It wasn’t so much about the coffee. It’s about a community and he wanted to build this third place between work and home when he returned Do America at Starbucks is more. Okay, so now we all know as entrepreneurs and small business owners that the story is a lot more complicated than that. But you need an origin story because an origin story is powerful. And that’s when people look for. So at its most fundamental, simplest level, Allison, have a personal story that reinforces the values and the reason why your company or product exists.


Fantastic. Is there when, when trying to share stories? Is there a limit to how many stories you can share in a certain period of time, like when you when you’re looking at a TED talk, like how many how many stories to tell in that presentation.


So let’s talk about Ted. All of most of your viewers I imagine are familiar with the TED Talks. And one of my books became very, very popular was a very popular public speaking book called talk like Ted. And the reason I wrote that book not because I wanted people to read it and give a TED talk, although a lot of people give TED Talks, read the book. It’s more about the public speaking techniques that we can learn from some of the best TED speakers. And I’ve interviewed a lot of them. And I’ve met some of them. I’ve worked with a few of them. And I’ve and I’ve interviewed many of the top TED speakers. So I know a lot about how it works and how it runs. A storytelling is a big component of it. In fact, the organizers of Ted, make sure that if you’re going to give a TED talk on the national stage, when they have their annual conference, the ones that are, you know, promoted on the website, you’d better have stories in there. It can’t all be facts, figures and data, because that’s only one part of persuasion. If we go back to Aristotle, the bigger part of the pie is the storytelling part. So you better have some really strong stories. Most To presentations and now some people say, well, it’s too formulaic. But let’s go with this. Most 10 presentations start with a story. Some people think it’s too much of a formula, but I disagree only because so few people tell stories anyway in business, that I don’t think it’s a bad thing. I really don’t think it’s a bad thing to stick to a formula, especially the formula works really, really well. Now, you ask the question, how, how many stories Should we tell? I’ll give you one example. That is a it comes from a speaker who is a lot better than I am and knows a lot more about speaking than I do. And that’s Bryan Stevenson. Bryan Stevenson is a human rights attorney who has become quite famous in the last few years because of his TED Talk, which talks about injustice in the criminal justice system and he also A book called Just Mercy. Mercy was a New York Times bestseller. The book is called Just Mercy, mercy, just mercy and it’s coming out as a movie. So you’re gonna be hearing a lot more about it. It’s with Jamie Foxx and a few other big name actors. You’ll hear a lot about it. How does it it’s based on Bryan Stevenson. So Bryan Stevenson is someone who I’ve talked to twice. He has won cases at the US Supreme Court level. He is very persuasive. He knows how to talk.


When he gave his TED talk, and anybody can look it up Bryan Stevenson, Ted calm, you’ll see that he gives three stories. He delivers three stories in 18 minutes. The stories are only about 60 to 90 seconds, but they’re very relevant stories too. We don’t even have to go into them really because they’re extremely relevant and personal. To his to his theme in that particular presentation. So that’s the point of stories is it they have to be relevant to that presentation. They have to be relevant to the vision and the idea that you’re trying to get across. So you have to prepare those stories carefully. Now with Bryan Stevenson, whether it’s a TED talk or whether it’s a public discussion of any type, it’s all the same theme is in justice in the criminal in the criminal penalty system. So it’s all the same theme. So he uses the same stories, and I’ve heard him tell the same stories over and over. But again, it’s kind of like Howard Schultz, you’re always in front of a different audience. And, and it’s always good to go over those those stories that reflect why you’re doing what you’re doing and those values, but he gave three stories in 18 minutes. I think that’s a pretty good pace. Now, if your viewers want to watch another great storyteller that’s more business oriented. Why don’t you go to the internet and look up? Steve Jobs, his famous commencement speech, whatever great commencement speeches of all time at Stanford, count how many stories it is. There’s three stories. There’s three parts, three stories, three big stories. And it’s mostly story. So Steve Jobs, too, was a storyteller. And that was a 15 minute presentation. So I think that there has to be a balance between stories that again, reflect your theme or better reinforcer, theme and the data, information, numbers, statistics, whatever it is, that backs your idea and provides evidence for your idea, but you have to have both. You got to have the logic and you’ve got to have the emotion. Okay.


So you, you have coached a lot of public speakers. I would imagine a large portion of what you’re coaching them on is having a story that That is relevant to what the message that they’re trying to convey. What are the other biggest areas of improvement that, you know most speakers need to take and consider to get to the next level?


Sure, there are several big areas that I, I find that there’s challenges in with everybody. And I think your viewers would be surprised at just how many people who are incredibly accomplished, very wealthy, have high level positions at companies who are terrified of public speaking, yes, who are not nearly as effective as they could be at public speaking. So they may have gotten their position or succeeded because of their competence in a certain area. But then when they have to become leaders, they have to rally people to a cause. It’s a lot harder for them to do because they’re, they’re very uncomfortable. So I think a lot of people are very uncomfortable when it comes to public speaking. So they haven’t thought through some of the more advanced techniques that I talked about. That’s why I wrote a book. That’s more for advanced speakers. It’s not for average speakers or people who have been giving presentations for a long time. It’s for people who are already pretty good at what they do, and now they have to get to the next level. Whereas if your viewers want a basic tutorial on public speaking, that might be more like my talk like Ted book, it’s our basic public speaking. So five stars is a little more advanced. And some of the things that advanced communicators do is we’ve already talked about one is storytelling in a big way. But again, they storyboard it early on. They sketch it out, almost like an artist does. What is my story and how am I going to visualize my story well before you open your eyes, PowerPoint slide. Whereas the average person opens the slide first and then starts filling in the blanks. So we’ve already talked about that. That’s one. But the second, third, fourth thing that we can all do with start with. The second thing is most people don’t rehearse their presentations. They don’t practice. Oh, yeah. Or here’s the other one else. I do this all the time. Yeah, and it shows, it shows, because you’re not nearly as polished as you could be. Steve Jobs. And I know this is a fact because I spent some time with a gentleman who worked directly with Steve Jobs and was in the present the rehearsals for his big presentations. And he said, the one thing he remembers is how much Steve Jobs rehearsed for weeks ahead of time, three, four hours a day they would schedule these rehearsal times. He said Steve Jobs went into character. It was weird. He said he used the word weird. And it was weird because the guy was doing a performance. And it was weird because it was just a handful of people in the room. And Steve Jobs would get on the stage, go through the slides and the visuals and the demos, and like, put on the performance, raises voice, use bigger gestures, talk to like he was talking to 3000 people. And then he would snap at a character walk back down to where his assistants were. And they’d start getting feedback on what they need to do with the slides. But it was a different character. So what was he doing? He was putting on a performance and he was rehearsing as if he were doing it live in front in a big auditorium. Most people don’t rehearse most people who I leaders who are giving mission credit big presentations really important. Presentations don’t kind of flip through their slides or their notes, but they rarely stand up, put it on a display, have get feedback from people in the room and go through it exactly like you would deliver a presentation, the same volume, the inflections in your voice, the pauses, how are you going to start that particular slide? How are you going to end it? That’s real rehearsal and practice, just like you will be given a performance. Most people don’t do that. And they’re surprised to a person when I work with them. They’re surprised at how more how much more effective than polished their presentation becomes.


And so speaking personally, for myself, I detest practice, but I know how much how much better of a speaker it makes me. How do you help someone overcome being stuck in the first five slides and practicing that and then going back to the beginning And not getting through to the end of their presentation, I get stuck in the front portion consistently.


Right? Why do you get stuck in the front portion? If you have a 30?


 I don’t know. It’s like, but I can see that though I can understand that I see that as well. I think people want to make that, you know, the beginning as powerful as possible. Right. And, and so we kind of stick with that. I understand. I understand that. It’s really important to but you actually are thinking along the right lines, because, okay, good beginning of a presentation. The beginning and the end of the presentation are the most important parts of the presentation. We actually know through science and surveys, that that’s what people remember the beginning and the end. So if you only have a limited time to kind of practice, make sure you know how you’re going to start because that’ll give you a confidence and people will remember it and remember how and Practice how you’re going to end it. You know, you have to end with something powerful and meaningful, but you can’t, you know, scramble around and start thinking and hemming and hawing and on. You know, just kind of going back and forth and being disjointed, distracted, it’s not a powerful way to end. So you have to at least practice the beginning of the end, and then practice the middle sections that are more complicated, especially areas of your presentation where that require some explanation of a complex topic. So I, but I, yeah, I’ve got to tell you I am. I’m a big fan of presentations. And Allison, here’s another thing you might you are probably very comfortable in front of a group is that imagine? Yeah, yeah, so most people are not right. Most people are not comfortable in front of groups. Most people still have a Look, I’ve worked with some senior leaders who are terrified of public speaking. And I’m you I’m using that word on purpose, because they’ve told me I’m paralyzed by public speaking. I don’t want to do this. And these are senior leaders. That’s where I think the practice comes in Allison, for those people’s specifically, practice really helps, because you’ve gone over the presentation so many times, that when you actually believe give the presentation in front of your group for real, um, it’s almost like you’ve practiced it so many times that you feel a lot more confident, comfortable. You know how you’re going to start, you know exactly what you’re going to say. Those are the people. Even if you’re just a little anxious about presentations, those are the people who I recommend, you know, you make sure you practice a lot more than you usually do. And I recommend about 10 times if you have a mission critical presentation, let’s say that you have to give a presentation to your boss, or you have to give a presentation to a new client. I recommend practicing it 10 times, in my experience by the 10th time, nothing can derail you, you’re really confident about your message. And it’ll show because then you can be a lot more loose, really and more flexible, and more confident. Put a smile on your face, because you’re not thinking about what you’re going to say next. You’ve already done it 10 times that’s you got that part down. That’s a really good rule of thumb I like.


So practicing 10 times to just even build the confidence and knowing like how you can say it wrong and then correctly, you know, working through those, I have a let’s see, I have got a keynote coming up in a few weeks. And so I will kind of back schedule it and make sure that Even though I’ve given portions of that keynote a few times, many times, the whole thing from start to finish for that particular group is custom. And it’s new. So I am going to practice at least 10 times here and right here in my office, I’m going to stand up, you can’t see but there’s a window here so people can see me out here. So they think I’m the oddest bird because I’m walking around talking to myself, but I’m going to have my clicker in my hand, and I’m going to go through the whole thing start to finish timing myself, how long does it take? And that’s why when I speak, for example, I never go long, ever. I know exactly, because I know exactly how long it’s gonna take. And if somebody says, Well, you have to speak from you know, this time to this time, you need to be out by 1030 or whatever it is on the nose. Oh, I’m out by 1030. I’m out by 1028 because I know exactly how long it’s going to take because I’ve already done it 10 times. It’ll give you a lot more confidence you’d be very oh and put yourself on video. We haven’t talked about that. But you’re, it’s right here, record it for yourself on video, press record, set it aside, right, set it, set it over here and give your performance watch it back, you’re going to catch a million things, a million habits that you didn’t even know you were doing. You know, you’re gonna catch a lot of this kind of stuff while you’re talking. Or you’re gonna catch yourself looking down all the time instead of looking at your audience. Those are little things that you’ll catch just by putting yourself on video. Very few people do that, which again, sounds like an advanced technique, but so few people do it. I think it is a competitive advantage.


I would agree with that. I have colleagues that I work with and can I bother you and he’s like, No, I’m practicing my presentation. I’m like you’re sitting okay in front of your computer. Like, are you practicing in your head? He’s like, Yes, I am. 


Stand up. Exactly. Tell your colleagues stand up and say it out loud in your hand and say it exactly the way you would deliver it. You know, most people, and I’ve done a lot of study on this, and I’ve done a lot of read a lot of research on it. Most people are very uncomfortable in terms of public speaking and giving presentations. Some have full on stage fright. Others are just very anxious about it. A few things. One you’re supposed to be. Yeah. You’re supposed to be It’s okay. Because socially, we want to be accepted by the tribe. I mean, this goes back to our DNA. They from thousands of years ago, you don’t want to be accepted. And it is it’s such a strong urge to be accepted by people that you can’t override it necessarily. But you can manage it by acknowledging yeah You know, yes, I do want to be accepted. I want this to go off well, so it’s okay to have those anxieties, but great performers in anything, whether it’s music or sports, they channel those anxieties by practicing it. And you know, this podcast called deliberate leadership, how about deliberate practice, they practice deliberately. And that’s a term that’s actually used practicing deliberately, because you’re practicing for this particular performance in the way that you would give that performance. And that’s how you get that’s how sports figures for example, get over or try to manage the nerves that they have a golfer standing over a three foot putt for the championship, well, they’ve already practiced it for real and in their mind’s eye thousands of times. So they they’re ready for that moment because they know their nerves are going to take over the same Republic speaking it is a performance. 


So you do have to practice even if some of you like someone could be in front of you and be an exceptional speaker, but some of the disfluencies that we use in our language that connect sentences, the SOS, like what is your tip to help people recognize and like, it’s just such a bad behavior. And I’m guilty of that as well. So what’s your best tip on the record yourself hearing and knowing nobody uses it.


Absolutely. So if you live if you watch great sports commentators, people who call football games, for example, on national broadcast networks, they don’t use arm. They’re very precise with their words. That’s because they’ve been doing it for a long time. But it makes a difference. The those are the filler words and filler words are pretty different. You know, they’re very, very distracting. On a rut my, the one I hate the worst right now is Right, right. So Allison, a lot of people are afraid of public speaking, right? Why are you asking me a question? Or are you may get a statement because you’re the expert. Can you be making a statement? I hear that all the time. So most people use a arm, or they use Right, right, right at the end of every sentence. So it gets very distracting. The reason why is because you’re not you’re thinking about the next thing you’re going to say. You’re not completely confident because you haven’t practiced that much. You’re not confident on the net on your message. So you’re filling that space, you’re filling that mental space before your next sentence. So you’re filling it with. So anyway, right? My book is called Five stars and it’s for people who are already really good at public speaking, uh, right now, I don’t just, it just kills filler words kills the conversation and will make you look far less competent than you then you are. Those are things that you can practice. But Allison those are actually very easy to get actually that’s another filler word. I’d use that all the time. Really no one literally ,generally and using it anymore, really.


I, but we all do it. I gave a I did a video for an internet platform when my book came out and I was in New York. Again, if I if I’m not thinking about it, I was using actually, actually, actually, actually, literally, literally, it’s literally the season. And so when I watched it back and ready to post it, I thought oh my gosh, this is the communication guy. we all we all do it, we all do it and you have to just be aware of it. And that’s why I find again, getting back to recording yourself is a simple way of getting that feedback directly. You can hear it yourself. You don’t have to wait for somebody else pointed out, and most people don’t. Most people are not pointed out, they want to be nice to you. So even if you say something or do something in your verbal habits that is distracting as heck, nobody will point it out. Even if you ask them, they may not point it out, because they don’t want to hurt your feelings. Right? So you have to record yourself.


I already agree. So on that same topic, you know, video is so powerful on the internet. And as part of marketing, like it’s more recognized in Google and it gets more views than articles and blogs and stuff like that. What I’m recognizing my own in this conversation, how do people commit to doing video? Well, because it is such a powerful tool. Do you have any suggestions? Like, it doesn’t have to be complicated production, right?


Video is okay, video is hard. I think the reason why there most business owners are not using video in their social media, at least from the surveys that I’ve seen, is because it’s a different medium and it’s not quite as easy as just writing a quick blog post or writing a few sentences on your Instagram account. Or tweet right that’s easy. Sent out a tweet. Video is powerful. And like you said, video in on LinkedIn and on Instagram and social media gets far more engagement. But from what I’ve read, very few business owners and small businesses are using video to me, this is an advantage. Video has always been second nature to me a little more comfortable for me because I was a former broadcast journalist. So if you turn on a video I’m okay I can go with it. And again what happens to most people is you turn on a video recorder on your on your phone or on a on a camera and they freeze. They almost freeze completely. And that’s because they’re not again it comes back to that deliberate practice. I’m comfortable on video because I have practiced it for 15 years as a television anchor. So to me it kind of comes second nature. video i think is hard for a lot of people. But like you said it is it is so powerful that it is something that people need to get comfortable with. With video when you are recording yourself on video for you. Instagram. And I think that’s a great place to start practicing video. Because you can use your smartphone, you can set up your smartphone with either a tripod or have someone hold it. And in 60 seconds, you can give a really nice short video and just 60 seconds, so you don’t have to worry about giving a whole presentation. But again, in 60 seconds, you need to make eye contact, you need to use hand gestures, you need to have inflection in your voice. You need to raise the volume of your voice, you need to lower the volume, you need to pause, pause for impact. So those are techniques that you can get better at simply by watching yourself and trying to improve your video capability and the way you come across on video. But the way you come across is much more important than the quality of the video although I do recommend trying to give yourself At least a nice background as best you can. And the audio I think audio is very important. When I do professional videos or even videos for social media, I have a couple of different microphones that I can use, like a Rode mic, you know, just a roadie D you know the road mics, like the boom mic you put on top of the camera there $100 or you could use a lavalier but I do think audio is important. I see too much social media video, or the audio is echoey or it’s a you can barely hear the person because they don’t have a microphone on. So invest in an inexpensive microphone. They’re not that expensive, I agree. But if a smartphone if my iPhone is relatively close to me within a few feet within maybe two feet, the audio here and the quality of the iPhone is still very, very good. So be careful with audio But again, the way you come across your eye contact, your energy, your enthusiasm, your gestures, all of that will elevate the quality of your video.


Who is doing it really well, like who is someone that you look at their videos? They’re just like they capture all of the things that you’ve just suggested needs to be part of it. Is there someone you can think of?


Okay, so are we speaking specifically about like social media? Sure. That’s perfectly fine. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I’ll give you one that is not going to be a surprise to anybody. And that’s Gary Vaynerchuk. 


Okay. And you know what I would I completely agree.


Yeah. Yeah. Gary Vaynerchuk does a video really, really well. Now, Gary Vaynerchuk has kind of a team behind. Yeah. I admire him tremendously. And I like I love his content. He also has A team he has a videographer who follows him all the time and does a lot of the editing. So, it he’s one of those people who I think you can learn from because of how he can take almost anything, a conversation with someone a phone call a presence presentation and turn it into short videos. I think that’s the big lesson from Gary Vee. But don’t get too caught up in the production value and how much production he does because he also has a team behind it. Whereas most of the people we’re talking to, it’s just you, it’s just you, so don’t get go Don’t get too overwhelmed that you’re supposed to do five videos a day. But I think he is a good social media person to follow to at least see the potential that you can have with with media or video. And then there’s there are there are other people who I find Follow one person in particular who I really like is Richard Branson. Richard Branson, and I know this is a fact because I’ve met him and I’ve seen him do this. He does his own social media. He hasn’t. He has one person who helps him on a blog, but other than that he does most of his own social media. So he’s on Twitter, you know, he’s tweeting out something. Or if he has a photograph, and he wants to put it on Instagram, he does it and he usually says something with it. So Richard Branson, you can follow on LinkedIn, you can follow on his own blog, Richard bright, I don’t know how you find it, you just type in Richard Branson blog, I’ve got a bookmark, but he’s got his own blog. So every almost every day, he’ll write something but I’ll also post a video. Sometimes the video is just him speaking. Sometimes it’s just an edited excerpt from something else he’s done. So he too, uses a lot of video and I think he even though he is a billionaire, he is still the kind of person who is using video and content as an entrepreneur I think any entrepreneur can learn from, because he’s doing it mostly himself.


Outstanding, both outstanding suggestions. Thank you. So can we briefly spend just a minute or two talking about your persuasion in sales and marketing? We all want to be persuasive. And should be obviously if we’re going to be capturing people’s attention. So what’s your tips?


Okay, persuasion. Once again, we know the formula. Aristotle gave us the formula 3000 years ago, no speech, no presentation that has been considered great is a presentation that falls outside of the formula. There’s three areas there’s it’s a three part formula for persuasion. The three part formula is Look, logos, ethos, pathos, logos ethos pathos, which simply means that in every conversation, let’s have a sales conversation. If I’m trying to convince you to give me another meeting, or to buy a product or to look into a service, I need to have what’s called ethos, which is credibility. That’s why when you go to my site in particular, you probably go to your site, you have testimonials from other people, don’t you? testimonials had that that’s giving you credibility. You have your resume, here’s all the things that I’ve accomplished. That’s credibility. That’s one part of persuasion. So you need to do that. That’s called pre persuasion. It before you even have the conversation, the people, the person who you’re speaking to, must have a bit of your credibility. So that’s one Part of the formula. The second part of the formula, this is where in the presentation, it’s called logos, which is logic, you have to make a rational appeal to a person’s reason, using statistics, logic. Allison, you may have this problem, my product has been proven to solve this problem. If you solve your problem, you will be happy, my product will make you happy, you know, just kind of like philosophy 101. there’s a there’s a semantic structure to using a logical appeal. How do I know my product will make you happy? Well, Alison, you are in this category. And according to surveys, you know, nine out of 10 people who are just like you are happy when they when this problem has been solved. So again, I’m giving you some logic. I’m giving you statistics, but then I have to connect with you on an emotional level. Because remember what we said even though people refuse to believe this sometimes because they think they’re so rational, every I am such a logical person, I will never make a decision based on anything but logic. Most people don’t realize that in order for me to persuade you of anything, I have to connect with you on an emotional level or show every decision you make is emotional in some way. And so if I am all stats and numbers and data and information, just information without any structural story or narrative around it, so that I can connect, you know, connect with you on an emotional level, then we’re losing that opportunity to make a sale. So, again, and sometimes things like metaphor, analogies, giving a presentation where I show you, maybe a story of a customer story, or write or give you a demo. Those are all ways of connecting with people on a more emotional Interesting, engaging level, emotion doesn’t simply mean I’m going to tell you a story and you’re going to like me, that’s just one part of emotion. There’s a lot of different ways of engaging people emotionally. But that’s the Aristotle. formula is credibility. Long logical appeal, emotion. And out of those three Allison, which one do you think according to Aristotle plays the bigger role in persuasion? By far,


I would think emotional connection.


That’s right. That’s right. That’s one way to support I think, yeah, you cannot persuade with out emotion. So look at you know, in theory, we studied Martin Luther King’s speech, I Have a Dream speech. We studied that endlessly in communication courses and persuasion theory because it fits all three If it’s all three, but a lot of it is structured emotionally, the metaphors that Martin Luther King chose resonated with that particular audience. The way he spoke the whole I have a dream, which is in in rhetoric or public speaking, there’s an actual word for that sequence. It’s called anaphora. But it’s caught. It’s kind of like parallel structuring. It sounds better. He didn’t have to create that speech in that way. He could have just given you information. But he was a preacher. He was, you know, he understood connecting with people on an emotional level. And that’s why the I Have a Dream speech is considered one of the great speeches of the 20th century. But and there’s plenty of logic to it. So if you follow the speech, it actually has a very logical sequence, the founding fathers based, you know, their theory on this and this is where it was broken and this is how we have to fix it. To get back to What our founding fathers originally had envisioned. So again, it’s this very logical appeal, but the way Martin Luther King spoke, and his metaphors and his rhetorical techniques all touched you on an emotional level. So he was very smart. He understood those three components. And Winston Churchill was a student of rhetoric. And his great speeches had logic and emotion. He understood it too. So great speakers who study persuasion, understand that you have to connect with people on a rational logical level, supporting your your idea with facts, figures, information and logic, but if you don’t connect with them emotionally, you’ll fail to make that connection. And remember, at the beginning of this conversation, I told you this is hard. This is getting a little more advanced. And that’s why there are not there’s a lot of average speakers. To be exceptional takes some work. And if you’ve been watching this particular podcast this whole way up until now, you know, 55 minutes into our podcast or so, Allison that then that is the kind of person who wants to learn more about public speaking and persuasion. And they are going to elevate themselves over and above everyone else. But not everybody wants to take the time to do this because again, it’s not that easy. The formula is easy. We understand it, we know how to do it. But implementing it takes a little work takes some creativity, for sure.


I’ve kind of taken on the idea of persuasion and sales and marketing and the formula for that I have sort of a slightly off the wall question regarding technology, and where we’re being taken to in the future. So Ad Age reported that Chase Bank is UD you Artificial intelligence to create their online ads, which are like significantly more clickable. When they’re artificially written. Is it? Is that the wave of the future? When we talk about like that emotional connection? Can artificial intelligence make that for us? 


Yeah. So as reported the Chase Bank is investing in, basically, artificially intelligence using clip more clickable ads, and they’re getting really great, like twice as many clicks in many cases.


Okay. Okay, good. Good. send that to me separately. You’ve got my email. So I want to see that whole survey and I want to study that because I’ve spoken to JPMorgan Chase, so I want to see what they’re doing. But I will I can guarantee you I already know I can already tell before. If anything, that’s right. Engaging, even though they’re using artificial intelligence, artificial intelligence and machine learning is finding the very same things that we just talked about. The reason why the ads are more engaging is because there’s probably a story behind it. The ads are probably narrative based. None, nothing that artificial. And look, the whole first chapter of this book was based on scientists and people who study artificial intelligence. And what they told me is that computers and algorithms cannot, they do not have emotion. So they can’t risk the what algorithms can do, and I don’t want to make this too complicated, but it’s in my book. They told me specifically, they can create an algorithm to identify what is it about a story or a movie or present That connects with people. Why is why does this particular story? Why is this more clickable than that? Okay? They can create an algorithm that identifies that right but computer and I was told us point blank by one of the top AI scientists in the world, car mine, they an AI will never replace humans because AI doesn’t have emotion. It can identify a moment. It doesn’t have I thought, what a brilliant observation.


So no on that. But those studies are really interesting to start to look at because they are not creating something that we don’t understand. AI is not creating something that’s more clickable, they’re identifying what are the components of a message that make that message resonate more and in every study I’ve ever seen on this particular topic. That’s why I want to see this JP Morgan one every store, everyone I’ve ever seen, identifies the very same things that Aristotle did 3000 years ago. So that’s what I mean by we know the formula. We know the formula for persuasion, you just have to study it, understand it, the information is out there and apply it.


Outstanding. I thank you for that. We’ll share the information that we have on that. I we’re coming right up to the top of our hour and so I just want to you have your book right there. I’d love for you to you have some great bonuses attached to your five stars book. And I just want to offer our listeners what is the best way for people to connect with you and find you and follow you online?


Well, if you can remember my good Italian name. If you haven’t figured it out already, it’s Italian car mine Gallo, spelled gallo. If you just go to my website, you can sign up for my newsletter, or follow my videos, the interviews that I do with people, that’s Carmine Gallo Calm. And if you can remember that name, you’ll find me on Twitter, you will find me on Instagram and you’ll find me on LinkedIn and connect with me on LinkedIn I, I love to connect and talk to people on LinkedIn, I find that it’s one of the most engaging platforms.


I would agree with you on that one as well. Also, for my listeners, you have a number of books if you were going to recommend what’s the first book that someone should start with based on the collection that you’ve written?




I’m going to go back in time a few years. I wrote this was one of my first big presentation books. This book became an international bestseller. It’s called the presentation secrets of Steve Jobs. I wrote this about 10 years ago, and yet today, I am hearing and I always get emails or I see stories. Have entrepreneurs who are winning over venture capitalists and attracting a lot of venture capital? And when asked how did you put your pitch together, they cite this book. They said, just go through this book page by page. So it really still is very, very relevant if you’re just giving business presentations. If you want to become a better public speaker, there is a book called talk like Ted, which is about the TED Talks, but it’s my interviews with some of the best TED speakers and how they go about creating their speeches and how they overcame the fear of public speaking. If you’re already in the workplace, and you’ve been in the workplace for a few years, you’re ready to give presentations you feel like, you know, you kind of know the drill. This is five stars. So this will take you to the next level. This is a little bit more advanced. It gets into storytelling, metaphor, analogies. To all of the advanced techniques that will make you an exceptional public speaker, and give you a competitive real competitive advantage over your peers and over other companies in your industry. And I’ve seen it happen. I get these emails all the time. And so I talk to people and I, I include their observations in this book. So those are the three books I’d recommend at this point. There’s the other one called storyteller secret. If you just want to get immersed just in storytelling, storytelling secret is one of the better I wouldn’t, I’d say I’m biased, but I think it’s one of the better business storytelling books out there. Because I spent a long time and a lot of research and talked to a lot of fascinating people who are just experts in business storytelling.


Outstanding, and I don’t know, you brought this up pre interview before we started the podcast. But you said you’re working on some stuff right now. Is there anything you’re able to share yet with us?


Oh, no. Not a new book right now. It’s mostly for my platforms. So I write a lot for Forbes calm. And, and I write for the Harvard Business Review. And I write for other platforms as well. So again, if you just Google my name, in news, if you go to Google News and Google my name, most of all my new articles show up. And that’s where I get most of my information. I’m constant. I read 75 books this year 75. Most of these books are sent to me by publishers. They’re all nonfiction or business. And in many cases, I get to interview the business leaders behind those books. So if you just go to like Carmine Gallo, calm, that’s where I compile the articles, the videos and all the things that I do so you can follow me or join my newsletter list and you’ll get more information and more content as I turn it out every week.


Fantastic. All right. So for all of our listeners, Carmine Gallo, Calm is the place to go to follow you. Carmine, thank you so much for your time here today. It’s been truly a pleasure. And I am. I’m going to work on my own storytelling because I do think that is a key component that all of all of us could do a better job at. So, thank you. Absolutely.


Thank you, Allison. Thanks, everyone. Bye.

I'm Allison Dunn,

Your Business Executive Coach

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